Help me not destroy a second plane...please

[BFG1974]

Alright here is my situation and I am looking for help/advice. I've read a considerable amount on this forum but need more help.

I self taught myself on a Hobbyzone Cub about 3 years ago, due to divorce and other things I shelved it. I pulled it out and flew it a couple of weeks ago and decided I needed something more. I went to the local hobby shop and spoke to what I will describe as the not-so-right person as to what my next plane should be and went home with a Parkzone Messerschmitt Bf-109G BNF and a Spektrum DX6i.

Excitedly I put everything together waited for an early morning with no wind and promptly augered it into the ground. I took my wounded pride and broken plane home and proceeded to put it all back together. Fixed it and took it back out again. I believe forgot one key point in this second attempt....adjusting the controls for the added weight of my repairs and upon the second flight augered it into the ground a second time breaking almost everything. After reading about this plane I feel I may have been wrong in my initial purchase of this plane. So decided to go to the store and find something else. (My wife wasn't too happy but once I've made up my mind I am difficult to sway)

I salvaged almost everything from the Bf-109g then went back to the hobby store and spoke to an employee who had been flying for a while. He recommended I go with an E-flite Alpha 450 as my "3rd" second plane. So I purchased it. I have it at home and am assembling it. I have the 480 motor from my aforementioned wreck and it's x-mount is wider than the mounting holes in the fire wall. I can get it to mount but the standoff's are at funny angles. I think I could probably modify the current x-mount to straighten up the firewall mounting holes as a whole but don't want to do anything before getting advice from people who know more than I do.

If you haven't noticed, I don't give up easily but don't know anyone who is in the hobby other than myself to give me a hand. I don't have a lot of time to fly, the park where I like to fly is 2 blocks away and makes it easy to fit into my schedule. I know there is a 'local' field but it is almost 25 miles away which is not convenient. So here I am looking for your help and advice to help me not destroy this on the first flight...if I do I won't be able to do anything for probably 6mo while my wife cools down to the money I've burnt.

Thanks,
Brandon

[WJCJR1]

Hey Brandon First off Welcome to HorizonRcFlyers I am glad you found us.

I am saddened you were steered toward the Messerschmitt Bf-109G it really is not a good second plane. The Messerschmitt is a good airplane and fine product from Parkzone however it is not the type of plane you need next.

Curious, with the Messerschmitt did you check CoG before flying. I know not all the details of the auger event you mention but if she augered in being super super touchy she could have been tail heavy and very hard to control, even worse for a second plane and flying on your own. Don't throw that stuff away though we may be able to help you fix it, even if it looks horrible.

Now moving forward I would have recomend for you either the Apprentice or the T-28 PNP. The Apprentice is a terrific 4CH trainer that is easily expandable for more performance to meet your upcoming needs. The T-28 PNP is a good step into a snappier low wing 4CH airplane. Both these planes are very repairable.

Wth the Alpha 450 I have some concerns Brandon. First though after you unshelved your Hobbyzone Super Cub how much flying did you do? How much experience with the HZ Super Cub do you have overall? I would recommend if you haven't done so lately get some stick time on your HZ Super Cub, turn up the control throws if you haven't already and start flying her as hard as she'll go.

Now the Alpha 450 if you feel you are ready to step out from the Super Cub the Alpha 450 looks like a nice plane. Make certain you get your CoG measurements right on and closer to the 3 1/4" mark. See pages 27 and 28 in your manual for information on this step. Brandon this is the most important part of the final setup. My biggest area of concern though Brandon comes that this airplane is Balsa and a lot more fragile than a trainer such as the Apprentice. Reading between the lines I am not sure this is the best model for you. However the good news is the wing loading of this airplane is a very docile about 11oz per SQ foot so she'll be MUCH more controllable at a slower speed when set up properly than the Messerchmitt would have ever been, so you are definitely heading in the right direction here. I still do not agree this is the perfect plane for your second model but it is light years better than the Messerchmitt as a second, IMO.

So with the Alpha 450 you should expect a much more docile squarely footed airplane than any of the warbirds. DOUBLE-TRIPLE check your CoG measurements, that 480 may be a bit heavy in the nose and the moving of the battery may be required to make weight.

After all is built, control surfaces neutral, CoG weighed get her to the field on a calm day with a fully charged battery. If there is a mild wind point the Alpha into the wind and throttle up, get some ground speed before allowing her to takeoff. Trim her out so she flies hands free straight and level. You don't have to fly wide open but keep in mind to a measured point airspeed and defintely altitude are your friends. The larger the field the better so you are not always making a sharp turn due to the confines of the area. For landing get her pointed straight and just like your Super Cub bring her in using the throttle control to extend or shorten your landing target. I expect the Alpha to float and float and float on landing so be prepared to go around again on landing if she floats passed you too long and high, then make corrections and begin approach at a lower altitude as needed.

Have fun and let us know how it goes. Once more glad you found us and look forward to seeing you grow into this Hobby.

Wayne

[liquid1]

Glad to see ya here, Sounds like your wife is like mine:laughing:..Wants me to get the best bang for my buck and not crash. This is why I am being extremly patient and thanks to rcdude found me a great pilot with 14 years of experiance to help me with flight using the buddy box. The DX6i is a good TX.
That said Not sure why the LHS didn't steer you toward the Apprentice 15e pnp its a great plane with fun potential and will glide in if needed.I am a newbie and these folks have helped me calm my excitement to just fly a bit. I use a simm and It will be a while before I solo. In fact the guy training me offered today to get with me on the Simm show me things tat will help me in flight since weather has been bad. Hang in there You have a leg up using the cub. I to have limited time..Good to see ya here. good luck patients is key to survival and keeeping money in the wallet..:thumbsup:

[BFG1974]

Thank you Wayne for the great information. Here is what I can tell you about my experience.

I've probably spent 50-60hrs flying the Cub. I was flying it inverted for entertainment and was adept at flying it in my opinion. I had stopped taking it to the park and just went to flying it in my neighborhood because I could squeeze it in between all the obstacles it presented and I found it more challenging than the huge park by the house.

I put another 3-5hrs into it after pulling it off the shelf. I made the mistake of using a really old battery (this is the older NiCad version) which appeared to have charged correctly, and I made a poor assumption that it was fine. At about 300ft in the air, the battery completely failed and I was forced to do what I make my kids do...go door to door asking the neighbors to check their back yard for my plane. Found it and decided instead of fixing and rebuilding it, a new plane was in order and ended up in my current situation.

As to the question of the CG on the Messer...no, I made a fatal flaw in thinking it was correct with the stock parts out of the box. I believe to your point that was likely my problem on the first attempt (broke the nose clean off, tail clean off, and snapped the left wing in half). On the second flight, I think the damage to the aileron sustained from the first wreck is what hosed my second flight. The plane did a hard roll into the ground right after take off and hit really hard compared to my first flight here is the damage tally:

1. Nose broke off again in a different location
2. Tail broke off again in a slightly different spot
3. Wing assembly broke off (plastic housing into body broke so the screw isn't doing anything
4. Elevator snapped off
5. Canopy (cover to electronics and battery) in 3 pieces
6. A few other pieces that I don't quite know where they came from but with time I'll figure it out

I did keep them all, I'll either work to fix it when bored or use them as spares when I get another.

I have attached a few pics to show how the 480 motor is mounted in the Alpha. Does it look good or should I look at a new motor or modifying the x-mount?

I'll really pay attention to the CG and balancing of the plane this go around. I am in no hurry and not nearly as excited to rush and skip steps as the first go around.

The park near the house is 60-80 acres with very few trees which I think is a great area to fly. I think I may need to spend a bit of $$$ since some of the Parkzone servo's are too big to mount in the body of the Alpha without serious modification to the mounting area which I don't want to do.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/th_480mount-1.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/?action=view&current=480mount-1.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/th_480mount-2.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/?action=view&current=480mount-1.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/th_480mount-3.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/?action=view&current=480mount-1.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/th_480mount-4.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/RC%20Stuff/?action=view&current=480mount-1.jpg)

[ATIS]

The "funny angle" for the motor is the down and right thrust angle to reduce the desire to climb under full power while the right angle is to counter the torque of the prop. The props torque is always going to try and spin the plane in the opposite direction of the prop direction of spinning.

With that said, go your your LHS, find the idiot that helped you and beat him. The 109 is not a second plane or even a first warbird. Read my review, its tricky to take off, tricky to land, and slower then the other PZ warbirds with a heavier wing loading...so it will tip stall like the real deal.

If your going to teach yourself the Apprentice would be your next step. The Alpha 450 is nice but its balsa so its harder to fix and slightly smaller then the apprentice so it wont handle as much wind. Not that I would recommend flying in the wind.

[WJCJR1]

Brandon exactly as ATIS explained and the down and to the right looks like an appropriate start to me.

If I am understanding properly I get the drift you will not be buying any other planes for a while so if this Alpha 450 is what you got wait for a calm day. She's going to fly like a very snappy Super Cub. Rather than the how Super Cub takes forever to turn the Alpha will zip right around. So watch yourself in the corners, keep your speed up and roll/bank the plane only slightly, 'keep the wings underneath her', that is something I teach my students. As you get more acustom to a 4CH planes you will be able to increase your angle of attack in the corners without losing altitude. With the Super Cub it takes a LONG time to get the wings to rotate over to a NO LIFT attitude but with Ailerons she will roll/bank smoothly and quickly.

You will enjoy the Alpha but wait for an appropriate day and 60-80 acres will be PLENTY of land as long as you have a decent approach and takeoff area.

Wayne

[BFG1974]

Thanks again Wayne and ATIS!

Wayne, you nailed it. I won't be able to get another plane for a while (unless my company has record stock growth in the near future). My plan is to take my time and not be overanxious. Early mornings here are usually windless so once I have it all together I'll post some pics and detail what I've done, I'll do this before I take it out to get feedback and any final thoughts before attempting flight. Probably be 2-3 weeks before I am done with the holiday coming up.


As I think about it, should I program my remote to limit the servo throws so that I don't over-fly the Alpha the first go around? Or am I better served leaving it at the standard settings?

Thanks again for all your help.

Brandon

[ATIS]

I would set them up at the recommended throws in the manual...and be sure to use some EXPO so the center of the stick is soft. That will reduce the twitchy feeling.

[BFG1974]

Ok. I've finished assembly.

Here are my pics of my COG work and the weights I added to get it to balance. I believe I had to add all the additional weight due to the size of the 480 motor vs. a 15 motor. In addition to the COG work I also balanced the prop. I am working on adjusting the expo settings in my Tx per Atis' recommendation, while I wait for a calm day to take it out. I think I've got everything ready. Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Brandon

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog5.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog5.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog4.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog4.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog3.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog3.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog2.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog2.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog1.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog1.jpg)

[WJCJR1]

Brandon from the pictures you display the plane looks a tad bit tail heavy. Where are you balanced in comparison to what is the recommended CG?

Will likely be ok but a minor list to nose is ideal for maidens. So I'd lose a tad bit of tail weight or shift the battery if possible.

After you learn how she flies you can make her neutral, then tail heavy to your liking at that point.

Wayne

[BFG1974]

I put the COG at 3-3/8" I figured to go right between 3-1/4" and 3-1/2" in the manual. Looking back at your earlier post, I'll look at setting based off of the 3-1/4" mark and pull a little weight from the tail. I'll post new pictures once I'm done.

Brandon

[WJCJR1]

:thumbsup:

Everything is about setup. Once these planes are set up properly they are rather easy to fly.

Case and Point: I have had the Deuces Wild out now three or four times. Of those three or four times I have wrecked 2 sets of main landing gears. Reason for this is coming in using full flaps and allowing the drag of the flaps to slow the plane so rapidly that just before touchdown she dropped like a rock. A simple tuning in of prop idle at Pre-Flight would fix this issue, I did this step the second time she was out and all was good but forgot the other few times and landed her a bit hard cracking the landing gear bases twice.

Setting our planes up properly makes for a safe fun day at the airfield, less stress, less cost and extends the longevity of our models. It is nice to see Brandon you are willing to take the time and set your model up properly; you are learning and respecting critical measurements and purely setting yourself up for a successful maiden flight and beyond.

Wayne

[BFG1974]

Thanks Wayne. I appreciate the feedback! The one thing I try to do is learn from my mistakes and take the advice of those who know more than I do.

That being said, I removed some of the tail weight and now I would say that the COG is nose heavy by about 5 degrees.

Brandon

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog8.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog8.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog7.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog8.jpg)
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/th_cog6.jpg (http://s813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/bfg1974/?action=view&current=cog8.jpg)

[WJCJR1]

Don't want to drive you crazy here but is this still at the middle of the road CG mark? Move the Alpha back on the balancing pegs until she is at the front most CG mark and double check where she is at.

You don't want to go too nose heavy either, if she's at the front most CG mark right now she will be a bit nose heavy. Although for a first flight I'd be more comfortable with a floater of plane like this at the setting you have now versus before.

Wayne

[BFG1974]

I pushed the COG forward to 3-1/4" from the 3-3/8" I had it at. If you think I should have another couple of degrees down in the nose, I can easily make this happen.

Thanks again!

Brandon

[WJCJR1]

NO more further inclination to nose. Since you are at the front end of CG I would add a small amount back to the tail to get the nose to be down about 2-3*MAX. 5* is a lot especially considering you moved the CG point to the furthest forward.

Can you move the battery backwards a bit? Is this CG being done with the battery and all in it. You must do CG checks at an AUW(All Up Flying Weight). If you can move the battery back just a smidget it might be enough to help you gain back a couple of your degrees.

So shoot for 2-3* down in the nose, initially you were Neutral as all get out and at Center CG. Now you are at forward CG mark and nose down so you have moved it quite a bit now go give back a little to the tail end to bring the nose up a couple degrees.

Nose Heavy planes land much faster and respond slowly to elevator input thus can stall when trying to pull a loop. Much energy is wasted trying to get a nose heavy plane to go vertical and by the time you are climbing you've already spent a bunch of your energy or inertia.

Wayne

[BFG1974]

Yes. I've been doing all my COG work with the plane fully loaded including my larger LIPO. I can adjust my battery positioning.

I'll get the nose to only be 2-3* down with either battery pack and then mark the position of each battery so it is consistent with either of my packs installed.

Brandon

[Rickco]

Brandon,
I see you are in Meridian, me too. Where are you flying??

Rick

[BFG1974]

Hi Rick. I have been flying at Settler's park and in my neighborhood. I tried taking my new plane out to one of the nearby middle schools but the grass was too tall to take off. I like Settler's park but with spring here it is packed with people on all the fields. So I am looking for a new site to fly that isn't more than a few minutes away from home (Ustick and Meridian Rd area).

Brandon

[Rickco]

Brandon,
I'm Cherry Lane/Linder area, not too far from you. My kids have played baseball at Settlers....lots of people there on a regular basis with everything going on...I'll PM you and we'll met up if you're interested...I have an apprentice, the guys I fly with have T-28s and Corsairs...limited experience....won't hijack your thread.........

Rick

[BFG1974]

Sounds good Rick. Drop me a pm when you have some time.

[BFG1974]

I just want to take a moment to thank everyone for their help!
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

I was able to take the Alpha out for her maiden flight on my lunch hour today. I was able to squeeze in three flights and not a problem. The plane was able to roll, loop and invert almost effortlessly. Without your help, it may have been a total loss. I just need to work on my landings, not beautiful/graceful, but not damaging at the same time. I only have to wait for the wind to calm and my batteries to charge before I get it out again.

Thanks again!

Brandon

[WJCJR1]

Congrats Brandon I am very happy you enjoyed the Alpha and have had a successful maiden flight. Proud we are of you for getting back on the horse and having a terrific experience.

As you can now fully respect it is all about setup, a proper balanced setup will fly effortlessly with great control, ability and yield a rewarding experience.

Are landings requiring what you feel is a lot of speed or is it just generally the nack of learning how to trade off between, altitude, speed, thrust and do it smoothly. I suspect after you get a little more comfortable being able to predict how the plane will fly you will start sticking the landings on the Alpha just swell.

Once more Congrats buddy! :clapping:

Wayne

[BFG1974]

Thanks Wayne!

As for the landings. It's really an issue of getting my approach where I want it, instead of where I end up. If I had to land on a specific spot, I would have some issues. In the big field where I'm flying, not an issue as long as I avoid the football goal posts and handful of trees. I think I have a fair knack for the speed, altitude and thrust. It is a me thing more than anything. That is my assumption since I don't drag the tail, drop from the air due to a stall, or nose in for my landings. I think as I get more and more comfortable it will be easy to line her up where I want her to land.

Thanks,
Brandon

[WJCJR1]

Yup you're right those adjustments will come in time. The fact that you acknowledge the need for the adjustment is 3/4 of the battle.

Wayne